Welcome to Working Lunch.

We're in the business of bringing you money news.

There's a warning that more companies will go bust - even though we're out of recession.

Experts say as banks and creditors recover their debts, it tips many companies over the edge.

We'll find out what you can do if your business is in difficulty with insolvency specialist Louise Brittain.

We told you about those new tax codes that are causing problems - we've got the king of tax matters, John Whiting, to explain what to watch out for.

And topping the bill: Ian Saunders is boss of Papa John's pizza.

He'll tell us how he's making more dough.

And putting your best foot forward - our man on the road Rob Pittam looks at trainers still made in the UK.

Here in Cumbria it is the last factory mass manufacturing sports shoes.

It has survived recessions but now it is planning to treble its output.

So we're out of recession - but more and more companies will go bust this year.

The insolvency experts R3 predict that 28,000 firms will go to the wall in 2009 - that's 5,000 more than last year.

-- 2010.

We sent Matt Prodger out to test the economic temperature among street market traders in London.

The official figures show we're out of recession, so small and medium businesses up and down the land must be breathing a sigh of releief.

. Here at Shepherd's Bush Market every stallholder is an independent trader.

So does it feel to them that the recession is over?

Definitely not.

If the recession was over I would be back working as a plasterer, and not as a fishmonger, earning half of what I normally do in a day.

Still not packing up as far as I am concerned, still pretty poor with trade.

History says they're right to be sceptical.

In the 80s and 90s there was a surge in bankruptcies which only peaked two years after the respective recession were officially declared over.

And now a new report by insolvency practitioners warns of a repeat this time around.

Organisations to lend money to companies and perhaps government support pence to look at the headlines, saying, we are out of recession, let's try and recover our money, and sometimes they can do that too quickly, and just as a business is starting to recover they have the legs taken out from under them and end up in an insolvency process.

Since the credit crunch there have been various government measures to help.

The government has been guaranteeing loans at levels of up to 75%.

And it has persuaded larger businesses to sign up to a code promising to pay their smaller suppliers on time.

There is more advice from the Government Support The measures put in place have been effective.

The Enterprise Finance garden T meant 6,000 businesses were given money they would not have received otherwise from the back.

These are useful schemes and they need to continue because if they goal, 2010 will not be about recovery, it will be about continuing recession.

Small and medium-sized businesses are also turning to an overdraft to keep them afloat.

\xC2\xA39 billion worth according to the British Bankers Association.

The last thing a market traders like these need, is for their help to be pooled now.

Louise Brittain is an insolvency specialist.

Welcome.

It is quite interesting.

We are out of recession.

Typically companies go bust after recession.

What is happening in this case?

With previous recessions this is traditionally what happens.

Companies that have been struggling for so long during recession, will demand is placed on them as we come at of recession and if they do not have the money to meet that demand they go bust.

People are having to be much more aggressive about the way in which they collect their bets.

Even if they started the recession with a healthy pile of cash, but is no guarantee they will survive a prolonged recovery.

might have a double dip.

Money can only be spared once.

Once it has gone it is gone.

Companies that have struggled so far, it might be a step too far for them.

It is not just about cash going.

Often they have assets but cannot access them.

Cannot access them, sell them, get lending against them.

You are being squeezed from all quarters, then you have employees' wages to pay, some businesses have been struggling for a long time.

This is when companies become insolvent when it they cannot meet their day- to-day demand for the bills.

What is the next stage after that?

Is it inevitable that follows through two companies going into administration or is it still possible to turn it around?

There are lots of things that can be done to save businesses if they seek advice early enough.

That is the key message.

The longer you leave it the fewer options you have.

As soon as you feel you are in difficulty, seek advice from professionals, top two major stakeholders, bank, major creditors, and debt arrangements in place that allows you to meet cash flow issues.

This does not just apply to companies but people as well who find cashflow struggle.

Who often still have assets like houses or cars.

What should people be thinking as individuals?

individuals, the good thing that has come out of this credit crunch is the lines of communication are much better.

People accept they the to talk about money and about debt.

For individuals, the same sort of thing applies.

If you are struggling, talk to your mortgage company or bank manager and start putting a plan in place.

Very helpful advice.

Thank you, Louise.

Ian Saunders, you a rough track -- you have a franchisees.

Have you seen many of them straw?

That is a good question.

Franchising is a good two-way partnership.

Companies like Papa John's make a very significant investment in the selection process before a franchise he joins the business, then the train and support them before and after they have joined to help them be successful.

We have not seen very many failures and I am glad to say that in the last 18 months we have not had a single one.

It is not just the franchisee's business and their own cash but other people demanding money from them.

Because the money is tight as well.

Do for -- du franchisers keep up the same pressure for returns for payment?

We have an expectation as in any contractual relationship that the fees due on the business will be paid.

We will be, as Lyse Doucet, as interested in the ongoing health of that business as the bank would be.

-- as Louise said.

As I was telling you yesterday from the Vauxhall plant in Luton - it's a revival in manufacturing that's dragged us out of recession.

All this week - we've been looking at things we still make in Britain.

Several months ago we visited the New Balance factory at Flimby in Cumbria which makes trainers and sports shoes.

Then, it was running to keep ahead of the recession.

Now it wants to sprint ahead with ambitious plans to expand.

Rob Pittam paid it another visit.

Each time I come to this factory I expect to find that it has closed down or half the workforce has gone, but instead I find it buzzing with activity.

It is a hive of industry.

They have been through the trompe -- Cumbrian floods, and the recession, and the plan is to treble output.

A factory working flat out.

This factory is taking on competition from the Far East and winning.

Some of the shoes made here are exported to China.

But the price is an endless search to boost output.

We're constantly looking to increase productivity, make more shoes with the same number of people, constantly challenging our people to help us do that and just through continuous improvement.

New Balance is an American-owned company which built a factory year when other shoemakers in this area closed down, giving it a pool of skilled workers to choose from.

Billy has been in the industry since leaving school.

I have been in this industry for 40 years and I love my job.

If he takes work of course I am at them like a dog and a bone.

What do you like about it?

It is different every day.

It is not repetitive, like people think of factory work.

It is a lovely job, a lively job, whatever you want to say.

It goes a long way to making people good workers.

There is a new generation of factory workers coming through and enjoying the old-fashioned thrill of making something that is sold around the world.

I have travelled down to London and you see people wearing New Balance trainers, and you think, I made them.

It is an achievement and it makes you feel good about yourself.

The factory survived the recession and the Cumbrian floods.

Many of the workers come from near by a Workington.

Bridges between the factory and a town were damaged but everybody turned up for work.

Nobody could afford to stay off, so we had to turn up for work.

That was it.

After years of British manufacturing being exported to countries with low wage costs, this is a place where the maiden at the label is still sewn on.

And the company is looking to double production from 1 million shoes period, to 3 million.

-- 1 million shoes they're here.

Now we had an email from Chrissie Hill on this subject.

Her daughter once had a pair of Hunter wellies which lasted for 15 years - they were made in the UK.

Now Chrissie is annoyed that she's had to return two pairs of Hunter wellies in the past 12 months because they leaked!

She notes that Hunter has moved its manufacturing to China.

She says she won't be buying another pair of Hunters.

We asked Hunter to commit on this.

They said they are concerned to hear about these issues and went on to say sorry.

Ian Saunders from Papa John's is here.

You are setting up a production plant in Milton Keynes.

You have invested \xC2\xA35.

5 million, to supply food, to your outlet.

Where is the benefit of this?

Surely it must be more expensive?

Papa John's Beazer is made from fresh door, so it would be difficult to source that overseas.

We think the benefit is in controlling product quality and making sure that everything we makers from the right ingredients and we can control quality as they go to our stores.

What does this do with your relationship with other UK businesses because it is an American-owned company?

We think of ourselves as a British company operating in the United Kingdom.

We will only import products where we think they would give us a point of difference to something we could not source here.

And with quality control - does that tell?

Yes, if you can have a site of the product before you send it to your stores, you can insure your building the highest quality product possible all the time.

We will speak with you later, Thatcher very much.

One in every five people who'll retire this year will not have a works pension, or their own private pension.

That's according to the Pru.

If they don't have other savings or income - or if they don't get a part-time job - they'll have to get by on the basic state pension of \xC2\xA395.

25 a week for a single person and \xC2\xA3152.

30 for a married couple.

We are answering your questions about pensions this The Swedish car-maker Saab has been bought by a rival that's 30 times smaller than itself.

It's been sold to the Dutch luxury car maker Spyker in a \xC2\xA3250 million deal.

Saab has suffered from a slump in sales, it sold 40,000 cars last year in previous years it had sold over 100,000 models.

It's claimed we spent eight full day as year fixing computer problems, actually that's not right we are forced to waste eight days when the technology doesn't do the job it's supposed to.

Waiting for computers to load, swatting away unwanted popup ads and installing new programmes.

Only one in three of us actually shout at our computers.

The markets, the recession is over, just but some economists are worried that the economy might go back into reverse, what they call the double dip.

One reason is that we brought forward some of our spending to beat January's VAT rise, leaving us with less to spend now.

Today the CBI tells us that there were more retailers which saw sales slip back in January than retailers who saw sales rise, it blames the snow as well as the VAT hike.

Another reason they're worried about a double dip is that economies have been dragged out of recession by billions of pound in Government help which will come to an end at some point.

Fears about the unwinding of that national support has hit shares, down for the fifth time in six days.

Now, it's worth taking another look at your tax code, you remember yesterday we told you that a new system being used by HMRC has meant some people have been sent the wrong codes and as a result could pay more than \xC2\xA31,000 a year too much in tax.

No doubt this is a matter for our tax guru John Whiting from the Chartered Institute of Taxation.

How are we notified about our tax code?

Simply by post, nothing comes electronically, so it doesn't fall into Declan's computer problems.

You get something like this, a notice comes out somewhere in the period from, well a week or two ago to early March.

The revenue are sending about 25 million of them this year.

It will have the date on, this is a year or two out of date, hopefully you are getting one that says 2010-11.

It's telling you the code, tax free allowance for the tax year.

As you look down it you should see somewhere on it it will say your tax code for the year looks something like this.

This one says 140L.

A lot of people will get something that says something like 647.

That's a classic person who ought to check and see where they're getting less, but the problem we are finding at the moment is that quite a few people are getting two or more of these coding notices.

That's the trigger point, that's what we should watch out for if we think we have the wrong code.

If it's lower than the standard, why, but a lot of people are getting two or more.

One of the things seems to be seem who have changed jobs in the last year or so and this new computer system seems to be picking up some of the old jobs, and as it were, sending you the code to the old job.

The key thing is this code isn't just for you, it goes to your employer or your pension provider, because this could happen to pensioners and tells them how much tax-free pay to give, so if had moved jobs from ITV or whatever last year to BBC.

forbid!

Then what could be happening is you get a code that says give her tax-free pay against her ITV salary.

Which of course you don't get.

Don't give her tax-free pay against her BBC salary.

So you end up paying more tax.

What if you haven't changed jobs and you are still getting these notices?

If you are confused at what the code is, if you are getting two or more or don't understand get in touch with the revenue.

How do we do that?

the form there will be a helpline number.

You have to ring that.

At the moment you will find a message that says if you are ringing about a coding problem please ring after the 31st January on the deadline.

Of course they're busy.

They're sorting that out.

But persevere, it's up to you to check and sort out, without that you could end up paying more tax, you could get it back but better not to lose it in the firs place.

What would we do on our tax matters without you?

more tax!

We are going to keep you forever!

Did you say she was going?

What a terrible tease you are.

Time for a few tasty facts about our guest of the day.

He is the managing director of the pizza chain Papa Johns UK and that company is getting a bigger slice of the action, sales rose 8.

6% over the winter as we dialled up for takeaways while gorging on Strictly Come Dancing and the X Factor.

There are currently 142 Papa Johns in the UK, the company does plan to open another 40 this year.

In one year it baked three and a half million dough balls, that's enough to stretch from London to Paris.

Ian, do come and join us.

Welcome back to the programme, you were here last year.

Sales up over the winter, at a time when people were meant to be cutting back on luxuries, on expenditure that they didn't need to have.

Did it surprise you?

No, not really, because we have had 16 quarters now of strong strong growth so it's a four-year plus plus phenomenon, we did experience a bit more of treat at home, rather than going out and people that would have had a restaurant occasion eating in home or ordering a pizza.

One of the themes of today is what we do coming out of recession, I imagine you might be worried if people are feeling more flush, perhaps more willing to spend that extra money in restaurants, rather than just get a pizza?

I think customers like brands they trust f you build up a long relationship with a brand then regardless of what's happening you continue to stay loyal loyal to that London.

It's about habits, it's about a treat is ordering something in and not cooking and saving money that way, it's about going out and looking for new experiences, that's what I mean.

New habits have probably been formed over the last 18 months and the growth isn't really a trend- breaking growth story.

The double dip story - we think there's going to be more of the same this year.

Is that what you are buying into, that we are going into a double dip?

No, I just think that customers had a stronger focus on value over the last 18 months and that that's brought, for us, that's brought new customers in for the first time.

We have given them a great experience.

We know that because they order again from us and they go online and tell us things about their experience which are generally very positive and I am confident they'll keep coming back.

You can't say the recession was great because people was trading down and say the recovery is going to be great for us because people won't have to trade down.

If the reason was good it was that first time round, that's going to go into reverse when the economy spins around again.

Going back, I think people now have much sharper focus on quality and on value.

If you have never had a Papa Johns delivery pizza before and you have now experienced one you will have had an experience you want to come back for, it's a restaurant meal experience at home.

Good that you have faith in the brand, I I expect nothing less, of course.

The online business, talk about how you are developing that, it's not just now about calling up for a pizza, you are trying to keep customers almost with Papa Johns in mind.

Consumer habits have changed a lot the last few years.

Orders online, it means people are at a PC ordering, you can order from us 14 days in advance, so some of this is planned activity.

Who does that!

People do.

14 minutes in advance maybe, not 14 days!

You would be surprised, Declan.

Once they're at that screen we can give them a reason to stay there, because it's going to take a while for the pizza to come to their home.

We launched Papa's Lounge, I challenge you to look at it, Declan.

I don't disbelieve you, it's atypical of certainly my buying habits.

I said you can order up to 14 days in advance.

question about franchising, are you seeing more people looking towards franchising as an opportunity for more work and earning money?

Yes, I think that's true.

In the last year we have had something like 1,200 applications, up on the previous year.

I think going back to your comments about the recession and insolvency during recessionary times, franchising per se I think provides a support system to somebody that may be doesn't want to be a complete entrepreneur but wants to run their own business and businesses like Papa Johns provide great support before, during and after.

It's a long-term relationship and one which we hope will endure for a long time.

Good to talk to you, thank you very much.

Any business that does well in a recession gets credit.

Every week we meet people who have taken their risks and and changed their lives, we call it a Slice of Life.

You don't need us to tell you that you are never too old to turn your business idea into a sizzling success.

Daksha Kumar is proof of that, she was 59 when she launched her company Indian Kitchen and now she wants more older people to follow her lead.

I am Daksha Kumar, I run a company called the Indian Kitchen and I am a sales director of the company.

I am very much involved in my business.

I spend time with my staff to know what we are going to be doing on a daily basis.

We have production meeting, we have planning meeting.

We have meetings to see how the products are performing in the supermarket.

I also take care of my elderly mother who suffers from dementia and that's a very emotional commitment that I have for my mother.

My day ends at about 6:00, but still the mind is still working, it's still ticking over, planning, researching, networking, what next would I like to do?

My relationship with Tesco was the fact that I happen to be there at the right time at the right place.

Tesco got in touch with us to see if we could develop a whole range of Asian, ethnic ready meals for the Asian market.

It was in fact a pleasure working with Tesco because they gave me the opportunity, they believed in me as much as I believed in them and we became joint partners in this venture.

You are never too old to do anything, if you believe in yourself, if you have the enthusiasm, if you have the commitment and if you feel that you will be successful, there is going to be hard work, there is going to be tears, there is going to be a lot of ups and downs but I believe that I have the courage in me, I have the commitment to be able to go forward and be successful.

Laurie South is chief executive of Prime, that's a charity founded by Prince Charles to help people over 50 set up in business.

I suppose when we talk about enterprise and we have had lots of great entrepreneurs on the sofa as well, some of the campaigns tend to be targeted towards younger people.

It overlooks the fact that people who are of experience, I wouldn't say old, but of experience may well be able to be more successful setting up their own business.

They certainly are.

There is a tendency to think entrepreneurs are just young people, actually the opposite is the case.

People who set up businesses tend to be older.

At the moment we are in a situation where we have got something like one in three of people over 50 and under 65 are workless so there is wonderful opportunities there.

People of that age have great experiences, great life skills, they've got ability and talent to draw on so yes there's great opportunities.

If you are older and you want to set up a business where should you go for help?

The first place is to come to us.

We tend to specialise in people who found themselves workless, they have probably been 30 years in a job and suddenly they're unemployed and don't know what to do so we can help them think through.

The first stage is to really contact our website I guess, look at WWW.

Primebusinessclub.

You can start interacting with us.

there particular issues that are pertinent to older entrepreneurs?

The first issue is the sheer ageism that we have got.

There's an attitude in society that once you are over 50 you are past it, you can't do it.

That really is prevalent and that ageism really belongs in the bin with racism and sexism.

It's really stopping people.

It's difficult to kick against.

Getting over that is quite a jump.

Thank you.

Lots of information on the website.

And Daksha Kumar was a